So I am by no means a political person, but even less nothing close to a religious person either. I think equal rights are important across the board as well as educating oneself on important topics, whether country wide, world wide, or personal topics.
I am happy with how this election turned out, I know my vote helped my guy win.
As someone who lost her job due to her own actions, no one elses, and has at one time relied on food stamps and assistance, as well as currently receiving federally extended unemployment funds, school grants, and low interest educational loans, i am SO happy at the outcome of this election. These last 4 years of Obama have done nothing BUT help me when i needed it. I could only hope that obamacare kicked in sooner so that i could be worry free about medical coverage.
However all the bashing on facebook got me livid last night. These people who I consider acquaintances, NOT close friends, are so NOT who i thought they were. We grew up together through elementary/middle/high school, but I never knew then how closed off they are to the rest of the worlds issues. But the arguments were between THEIR friends or family or acquaintances. They are HIGHLY involved in their faith, and base everything solely on that. I really have no desire to keep even this basic “online acquaintance” at this point. There are others who were vocal, but not so unwilling to see anything in another light, as for now, they’ll probably stick around.
I’ll c&p a VERY long conversation from facebook that went back and forth and round and round with no means to an end.
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4 more years of listening to obama’s CRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP. his speech was a joke: get rid of debt, create jobs, blah blah blah, empty promises, mr president, cuz you made all the same empty hope change garbage promises 4 years ago and you didn’t do any of them. not impressed with the american people tonight ..
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14 people like this.
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Maggie Jesse AMEN! -
Jaunice Cumpton Franzen You’re not impressed because the American people voted their consciences and a number of them just happened to differ from yours? -
Maggie Jesse ^ I dont think that was the point.
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Sara Ann Wolcott That was pretty much the point. ^ -
Jay Davis Oh my word. They didn’t vote their consciences. Half of them couldn’t even accurately describe in general detail either candidate’s economic plan. -
Barbara Asp Mathers jaunice, i’m not impressed because obama hasn’t done ANYTHING he promised to do. his speech was exactly the same as when he was previously elected. how can you vote for someone who started the dream act? illegals are illegals because it’s ILLEGAL. and obama said “crap on you” when the house and and senate voted against it, so he did an executive order and did it anyway. how can you vote for someone who agrees with gay marriage and partial-birth abortion? and doesn’t balance the budget? and turns down creating new jobs? and has gas prices so high ? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND ETC -
Jaunice Cumpton Franzen I support the dream act. I worked in higher education for 12 years, I’ve seen the differences it can make in an individual, a community and the country as a whole. I don’t think we should deny education to anyone living in America, it pays for itself many times over. Especially considering that these young adults are here through no wrong doing of their own, why should they be punished for the “sins” of their parents? I support equal rights for all and believe that marriage, as defined by government, is a civil institution that should be afforded to any two consenting adults regardless of gender. I believe that choices regarding abortion should be left to a woman, her partner (where applicable), her doctor and her God. I am personally very pro-life, but I believe that government has NO business in personal, medical decisions. The last president to balance the budget was Clinton, it’s not an easy thing to do and one in which both sides must work together, something the GOP is refusing to do. Jobs are being created, unemployment is down. Is it as quick as we would wish? No, but it is headed in the right direction. And the president has no control over gas prices. and……
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Sara Ann Wolcott Barbara, what if, your son comes to some day and tells you he’s gay? Don’t say it CAN’T or WON’T happen. You never know. Will you disown him? Or support him? If he wants to get gay married will you attend?
If someone elses life and decisions DON’T have a direct impact on YOU, who are YOU or ANYONE else to say what someone may or may not do? Because your religion says so? Books can be wrong, whether thats a math book with answers in the back, or a Bible with someone elses thoughts printed in it.
This country is based on “illegals”. Indian Americans are the ONLY people who are indigenous to this country. Did they ask for papers when Europeans came here? They shared their knowledge, land, food until the”illegals”got greedy and took what they decided was theirs.
If someone comes here illegally, yet makes the effort to become a citizen the right way, why should anyone be penalized for that? We take in refugees from countries everyday. Because we are the nation of freedom and opportunity, gay straight white black brown. OIL companies regulate gas prices fyi. Yes there are govt taxes, those make up about .15 cents of the price the rest goes to big oil, who had hands in Romneys back pocket. -
Jay Davis I love that liberals bring up the whole native american issue and in the same breath criticize Romney for outsourcing jobs. If you love immigrants so much Sara then open the border completely like we did back in early days of America. Unfortunately America has grown and changed and with that we have to change some rules. I’m all for immigration reform but your ideas are full of fallacies.
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Barbara Asp Mathers jaunice and sara, i disagree on pretty much all of the above. but you are both welcome to your opinions, as am i welcome to mine.
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Sara Ann Wolcott I didn’t say a word about outsourcing jobs thanks.
America HAS grown and changed over hundreds of years, before it was even “America”
but Where do you think your cell phone, TV, computer, DVD player, charging cords are all made? Most likely not here. -
Sara Ann Wolcott But you didn’t answer any of my questions?? I hope, that someday, something happens in your life, be it positive or negative that makes you step back and question the beliefs you have been TAUGHT. and maybe, just maybe, you’ll come up with your own free thinking reasonings.
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Jay Davis You missed my point. You say we should let anyone come into the country and then curse Romney for investing in companies that outsource because you believe outsourcing steals your jobs. And yet when republicans say immigrants steal jobs you say that isn’t true. See the hypocrisy? And yes I know it isn’t made here but your party says that it should be made here independent of what it costs.
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Jaunice Cumpton Franzen The right to express diverse opinions is one of the things that makes our country great. I just prefer when people are open minded and respectful, myself included. Being liberal doesn’t make me evil, dumb or the anti-Christ any more than being conservative makes you any of those things.
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Jay Davis Yup the great open minded liberals trying to make us out to be close minded bigots because we don’t believe in what they do.
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Jay Davis And I was saying that to Sara. Not you Jaunice. I agree with you. I don’t think people with opposite opinions are evil.
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Jaunice Cumpton Franzen Jay – certainly hope that you didn’t get that from my post.
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Jaunice Cumpton Franzen Thanks.
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Jay Davis Not at all
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Barbara Asp Mathers sara, i’ve formed my own opinions, no brain washing here. i’ve made the decisions on my own to disagree with gay marriage and abortion, period. i disagree with gay marriage because it’s wrong. and i disagree with abortion because it’s wrong. but that’s just my opinion. apparently MILLIONS of people disagree with me, and that’s why obama won.
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Sara Ann Wolcott No i didn’t say anything about outsourcing. YOU did. It’s obvious that immigrants accept jobs, because a lot of citizens are too lazy to do remedial labor jobs, or are unwilling to work for less than they THINK they are worth. I make $8.13 an hour. I used to have a job making $17 an hour. I lost that job due to my own actions. If someone works in the us, they pay taxes to the us, then that’s it.
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Jay Davis I agree with you about immigration reform. I think children brought here by children should be helped. Have a different opinion on gay marriage and abortion but I respect what you are saying and why you came to those conclusions.
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Jay Davis No Sara I said that using the Native American argument for why we should stop immigration is a fallacy. There are so many better arguments for immigration reform. That is what I’m saying. If you take the Native American argument you then have to say we should allow anyone to come into our country who wants to. We can’t do that because it would destroy our economy. Am I saying let no one in? Of course not that is ridiculous too. I’m just trying to point out that some reasonable immigration reform arguments are like Jaunice said talking about children who didn’t choose to enter the country illegally. I think another argument is saying, Okay we are in a bad situation how do we move forward and not backward?
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Sara Ann Wolcott So, if MILLIONS of people disagree with you, why would you not even attempt to reconsider, re evaluate, or educate yourself on a topic. If EVERYONE says the sky is blue, but you insist that it’s yellow, would you not question yourself? Maybe you’re colorblind? Maybe you’re blind to others reasonings?
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Ashley Gustafson Mitt Romney lives in the dark ages. To deny gay marriage is anti human. Any religion that targets a certain group of people as less equal is a false religion -
Barbara Asp Mathers sara, millions of people agree with me too. a lot of people are anti gay marriage and abortion. ashley, you are totally welcome to your opinion.
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Jaunice Cumpton Franzen I’ve faced an abortion twice, both times it was my life on the line and I almost lost. I chose to risk it, against medical advice, but that was a decision for me to make. An extremely hard decision with my last, knowing that I could be leaving behind 3 (hopefully 4) children if it went badly, but knowing that I could not choose my life over that of my baby. It was and still is the hardest decision I’ve ever had to make. Made harder by the fact that I went to school with a girl whose mother chose the decision and though her baby made it, she didn’t, leaving behind 8 children who suffered, mourned and wondered why their mother loved a fetus more than she loved them. I certainly do NOT ever want government in the middle of that equation.
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Jaunice Cumpton Franzen Sara – even if everyone disagreed with you, that doesn’t mean your beliefs are wrong or need to be re-examined. Sometimes, everyone else is actually wrong and sometimes what is right for one is not right for another. There is no one right way or answer.
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Jay Davis Another fallacy Sara. You are trying to simplify issues that aren’t that simple. We aren’t talking about factual things like what the color of the sky is. I have accessed your opinions and disagree with them. That is what Jaunice was saying. These issues aren’t black and white and extremely simplified. And Jaunice thank heaven you made it. I think abortion is another great example where it isn’t as simple as saying yes or no. Then we have these gray decisions where it isn’t as easy as saying pro life or pro choice. As you wonderfully pointed out sometimes it is the impossible question of which life to choose and in these situations black and white thinking doesn’t serve us so well.
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Barbara Asp Mathers my opinion on abortion is based on the millions of babies who are aborted. the percentage of mothers who’s lives are at risk and the mothers who are pregnant through incest or rape are such a small percentage compared to the millions of babies who are aborted. but again, that’s my opinion. i didn’t say any one else’s opinion was WRONG.
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Sara Ann Wolcott Sometimes simple is easier. Would like coffee? Yes or no. Do you want to be pregnant? Yes or no.
There are many factual things, scientific things, that religions disagree with, when science clearly shows how x,y,z came about. -
Jaunice Cumpton Franzen The quickest and easiest way to bring down the number of abortions is education and access to affordable health care.
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Sara Ann Wolcott Should EVERYONE be granted EQUAL rights? YUP. plain and simple.
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Ashley Gustafson Gay marriage is a right separate from all the others. Saying you have a right to your opinion to be anti gay is like a racist white person from the 50s saying they have the right to hate black people and treat them inhumanely….but they didn’t. I personally didn’t vote bc I believe the party system should be rid of. Though, relieved Obama won over mittens.
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Jay Davis Okay then why are people in jail Sara? According to your black and white thinking no matter what people do everyone should have equal rights. So why do we put people in jail?
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Jaunice Cumpton Franzen Ashley – If you want to get rid of the party system, you could always just vote for who most closely represents you regardless of politic affiliations. If more people did that we might be able to get away from the party system.
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Sara Ann Wolcott I agree 100% jaunice. Education is key. I actually got into it with a woman at Walmart yesterday over her 1 screaming child out of 6 with her, and explained to her the reason i have NO screaming children with me is because i know how to access and use birth control properly.
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Ashley Gustafson Thank god millions of unwanted fetus (not baby, but yes still alive) are aborted because then our economy and environment would be even worse!! You would think all the Romney supporters who love him for his economic policies would hate him for that!
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Jay Davis And Sara it is not the same at all and that is insulting to black people. Homosexuals comparing their struggles to the struggles of African Americans is so insulting and degrading it is ridiculous. Blacks were enslaved for hundreds of years and their lives were taken because of the color of their skin. We are not being anti gay or saying we hate gays. Hating anyone is completely wrong. However not all things are rights.
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Sara Ann Wolcott People go to jail because they break the laws that set. Hey i spent a night in jail once. My boyfriend spent years in prison. You break the law, you face the consequence. Innocent until proven guilty. Everyone in the us gets that right in the judicial system.
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Jay Davis That’s not what you said. You said everyone should be given equal rights. And like you said because of consequences that isn’t true.
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Sara Ann Wolcott Lol what?? I said nothing about comparing slaves and homosexuals.
Ashley, i agree. The world is already overwhelmed with unwanted children, why bring more into it? Just adds to poverty levels. -
Jay Davis I love Ashley how you make us out to be equal to racists because we feel that gay marriage is a more complex issue than just saying give everyone what they want and then say you’re glad millions of babies are killed so our economy can be better and we can all have more money. Look up some stats on abortion. 75% of all abortions are performed because the mother feels the baby would be an inconvenience. I agree there are cases where it is needed like Jaunice pointed out like rape, incest, medical issues but when 75% are so the mother doesn’t have to live up to her choices that is ridciulous.
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Ashley Gustafson People who gave black people unequal freedoms back in the day Jay said the same damn thing. Fucking history ya know?
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Jay Davis I was talking to Ashley in that part Sara.
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Ashley Gustafson It just ways repeats itself
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Sara Ann Wolcott At least the mother RECOGNIZES she can’t handle that responsibility. She SHOULD have used protection to begin with, that falls back on to education.
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Jay Davis No they didn’t. Maybe you should read a history book. They said that black people weren’t human and therefore it was okay to kill them. Kind of like the way you talk about fetuses. Ironic huh? F**king history the way it repeats itself.
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Jay Davis No she should have the baby and give it up for adoption to one of the millions of families begging for a child.
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Ashley Gustafson Can’t say fuck cause god won’t like you huh?
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Jay Davis No because I believe swearing shows how stupid you are
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Sara Ann Wolcott Where it takes 3 years to be approved for adoption? And that child will sit in FEDERALLY funded foster care? I have friends who after YEARS finally received foster children who they may potentially be able to adopt but that’s a whole nother stack of papers to go thru which will take Years
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Ashley Gustafson Oh ok. Or calling yourself a Mormon
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Jay Davis Intelligent people can make rational arguments without swearing
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Jay Davis Yup another liberal who only sees bigotry one way. You can mock me for my beliefs but disagreeing with yours makes me a bigot.
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Sara Ann Wolcott But the swear words just make more of an impact, Ashley (=
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Ashley Gustafson I’m not a liberal. Voted for McCain and bush actually
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Ashley Gustafson Do live in Cali though. Damn those hippies
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Jay Davis Okay another bigot who only sees bigotry one way.
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Ashley Gustafson Anti gay marriage is bigotry. Period. Done.
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Jay Davis I actually love Cali but nice assumption. You’re bigotry is worse than I thought.
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Ashley Gustafson Unfriend me!
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Jay Davis I’m not your friend.
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Jay Davis You can unfollow the post at the top if you want.
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Jay Davis Make a logical argument for why loving homosexuals as people but disagreeing with gay marriage is bigotry and I will vote for it. I have tons of gay friends and love them and hate the way people sometimes treat them. I stand up for them but I have reasons to believe that gay marriage is not beneficial for our society and for marriage as a whole and believe it is an issue of the greater good.
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Jay Davis And saying that because I’m against gay marriage means I’m a bigot and a racist shows how small minded and close minded you are.
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Jaunice Cumpton Franzen Jay – Ideally that is what would happen or they would just not get pregnant, but that is certainly not a choice I want the government involved in. To add some perspective, over 90% of abortions in the US take place before 13 weeks gestation. Having suffered through 8 first trimester miscarriages, I fully believe that “life” as we know it has yet to begin at that point. I don’t know for certain when a soul is connected to a physical body. I wish abortions didn’t exist. I wish every child was wanted and everyone who wanted a child could have one. Reality is in a fallen, imperfect world sometimes we have to face really sucky decisions. Decisions that I want to always be between the affected parties, NOT politicians who act like spoiled toddlers and can not even come to a consensus and work together on matters of much less importance
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Jay Davis I agree with you Jaunice and that is why I don’t want to make it a black and white issue. I know that for many women it is a very tough decision, an impossible decision. But I think women and especially men need to stand up sometimes and say “Hey we did this now let’s try to benefit someone else.” I’m not saying that in the case of rapes or abuse or medical issues. I agree that the government getting involved complicates things. While living in Brazil I worked with many women who had abortions earlier in their lives and who told me that when they made that decision they made it so haphazardly and some of them were literally on the verge of emotional breakdowns because they felt so guilty. It broke my heart to see them going through this.
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Sara Ann Wolcott By voting against the ability of your gay friends to marry, you ARE being unfair. What will it affect? Your life? Them signing a document, sharing rings, and throwing a FABULOUS party would affect YOU personally, how?
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Jay Davis But Jaunice I must say I’m really glad you took the time to explain your decision and understanding of abortion. It has definitely made me open my mind.
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Sara Ann Wolcott Being married whether straight or gay, gives that couple a sense of security. The ability to make decisions in life threatening situations, to benefit from life insurance, and to be provided medical insurance by their spouse. It’s NOT just about being in love.
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Jaunice Cumpton Franzen Jay – Thank you. I have enjoyed our discussion this evening. It’s been enlightening. I think if more people would take the time to have a respectful discussion, we could all find a lot more common ground.
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Jay Davis Sara – First of all life isn’t fair. Do you think it’s fair that we have held drafts and sent some people to die for their country and others because they were in college didn’t have to go? I tell my gay friends that although I want them to have every right that I do which they can have without marriage I feel that changing the definition of marriage has very few benefits compared to extreme costs.
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Jay Davis And even there you are talking about civil unions Sara not marriage. The LDS church has fought to obtain all of these rights for gay couples in Salt Lake City and Utah. We want them to have sense of security and those rights and that is why we have pushed for allowing civil unions and equal visitation rights and life insurance. But changing marriage isn’t needed for those things.
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Sara Ann Wolcott What are the differences? Marriage is based on love. Period. There are addl benefits that come with legal marriage. But the basis is love.
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Jay Davis And Jaunice I agree. I think this is a great example of how we move forward in this country. Trying to find some middle ground of where we all can agree and when we don’t being polite and not calling each other bigots like Sara and Ashley have been doing.
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Jay Davis Sara you should read some things on how we have made marriage into something that is all about the spouses when for thousands of years the purpose of marriage was seen as a way to protect children and procreate. But we live in a society that puts individual rights above everything else and that has caused a lot of problems.
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Jaunice Cumpton Franzen One of my main issues with denying marriage to all, is that in this country we have already defined marriage as a civil, non-religious contract which is sanctioned by the government. Under that definition, I have a really hard time denying it to anyone.. based on gender or sexuality. Marriage is not recognized a religious rite, covenant in America. You have to file for a marriage licenses, people of different faith can marry, atheists can marry, you don’t have to be married by a clergyman, etc. As such, how can we justify denying it to any law-abiding, consenting adult?
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Jay Davis Don’t you see Sara how you keep turning everything into a black and white issue. “Marriage is about love. Period” “Everyone should have equal rights no matter what.”
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Jay Davis Like I mentioned to Sara there is some really great material out there about how we are changing the very core of marriage. Give me one minute I’ll find some material.
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Jaunice Cumpton Franzen My husband has suggested to me during several debates that we’ve had on the subject of marriage rights possibly creating civil unions for ALL, religious marriage for those who choose as long as they have a willing church. I’m not sure my feelings on that, but it’s something to think about.
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Jaunice Cumpton Franzen Jay – So a re-definition (or reverting to a past definition) of marriage as a structure, support for child rearing? What about couples who choose to not have children? Should they be denied marriage rights?
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Jay Davis Here is a great speech given by Robert P. George of Princeton about why we should preserve the traditional definition of marriage. http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=1809
speeches.byu.edu
BYU Speeches, a vast, free searchable 1,000+ database of devotionals and forums with transcripts, audio archives, and products for purchase -
Jaunice Cumpton Franzen The text isn’t available, but I’m listening to it now. Thanks!
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Jay Davis I think another example is that adoption agencies funded by religions that don’t support gay marriage and who won’t service gay couples have been forced to shut down. So now we have children who are not getting adopted because the government is saying either do something that you believe to be morally wrong or you have to close your adoption agency. So when people say that voting for gay marriage won’t in turn infringe on our rights such as allowing our church to remain a non-profit organization we have a hard time believing them
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Sara Ann Wolcott Yes, not everyone WANTS to have children. I dunno if i ever want to be married. But i have the OPTION for both. Marriage shouldn’t be defined by just the protection and stability of a family unit .
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Jaunice Cumpton Franzen Sara – I think I’m missing your point there. I’m sorry, it’s getting a little late. My mind isn’t quite as sharp at this hour…
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Sara Ann Wolcott I was agreeing with you, about couples who don’t have kids (=
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Jaunice Cumpton Franzen Jay – Adoption agencies can already put very selective criteria in place: member of a certain religion, tithe paying, number of years married, etc. If they didn’t want to allow adoptions to gay couples wouldn’t that fall under them not being a member of catholic/LDS/etc. religion?
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Jaunice Cumpton Franzen As you can not be an active, TR holding member while participating in a same-gender marriage.
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Jay Davis http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/illinois-bishops-announce-shutdown-of-adoption-services/
Springfield, Ill., Nov 15, 2011 / 06:00 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Bishops in three…See More -
Jay Davis This article is about how in Illinois the Catholic church was forced to either offer their services to gay couples or shut down and so they shut it down. This is what is happening because of the push for gay marriage.
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Jay Davis I’m not expert but from what I have read it looks like now the govt is saying you can’t discriminate based on whether they are a member of your church or not.
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Jaunice Cumpton Franzen I’ll have to look into that. I wonder what that is going to mean for LDS Family Services…Will they allow adoptions outside of the church? Will they discontinue adoptions or just try to arrange private adoptions where the mother chooses the couple? Something to think about….
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Jay Davis From what I understand and some of this is anecdotal but they are shutting down LDS Family Services adoptions. My best friend’s little sister just got notification that all of the work they had done on their adoption was now for naught because the church is not going to be able to continue the service unless they offer the service to everyone and anyone.
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Jay Davis So although we are told that gay marriage will not hurt anyone and it is just letting two people in love get married it is having negative effects.
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Jay Davis So are the rights of all those families who would have adopted through these services not as important as the rights of homosexual couples? Unfortunately like we were discussing it’s not such a black and white issue as sometimes it is made out to be.
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Jaunice Cumpton Franzen But that would be happening regardless of equal marriage rights, if one of the primary issues is allowing those who are not of said religion to apply.
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Jay Davis I don’t know if you ever read Fair LDS but it is an apologetics group (meaning they believe they can support our religion through logic and fair arguments) that has a free Wiki that answers a ton of great questions. Here is their section on Prop 8 http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_politics/Gay_marriage
en.fairmormon.org
The passage of California Proposition 8 during the November 2008 election has ge…See More -
Kettie Mae Surber I just can’t comprehend why so many people are so judgmental and angry about other peoples opinions…. Everyone should be happy that they have the right to express their beliefs .. Don’t let politics ruin relationships….. Friends are worth more than that. -
Jaunice Cumpton Franzen Jay – Thanks for all the great links. I’ll have to finish checking them out in the morning. I hope we can continue this dialogue at some point. I’ve appreciated it! Have a great night!:)
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Jay Davis Well said Kettie. The people who were being angry and calling everyone bigots and idiots all left.
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Jay Davis Yeah me too. It was great talking and having some of my views challenged in a respectful way. I love that.
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Jay Davis I’m definitely going to go do some studying and read some things by people who have different opinions than me.
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Just me and my favorite man, Donnie Wahlberg! 
The more Sara, the better! 